Book Publishing Red Flags With Elizabeth Lyons
EPISODE EIGHTY SIX
Publishing a book is an exciting time. But with so many options (traditional, hybrid, and self-publishing) and so much conflicting advice, it’s easy to feel confused about which path is right for you.
In this special episode (and our first-ever interview!) I’m joined by bestselling author and publishing strategist Elizabeth Lyons. With decades of experience helping authors publish with clarity and confidence, Elizabeth is pulling back the curtain on the red flags every author should look out for.
We dive into:
The real differences between traditional, hybrid, and self-publishing
The most common (and costly) publishing mistakes authors make
Why self-publishing is more empowering than you think
If you're navigating your publishing journey or trying to decide which route to take, this conversation will help you move forward with clarity.
Tune in and get the insight every author deserves before they publish.
Links
“Which Publishing Approach is Best for YOU?” by Elizabeth Lyons at publishaprofitablebook.com
“7 Critical Questions to Ask Hybrid Publishers” by Elizabeth Lyons at publishaprofitablebook.com
Grab the free Pick Your Platform guide to clarify where you should show up online:
https://jenndepaula.com/platform
Ready to create a book marketing plan that works for you?
Check out the Book Marketing Starter Kit:
https://jenndepaula.com/book-marketing-starter-kit
TRANSCRIPT:
Jenn Hanson-dePaula: Publishing your book is exciting, but it's a time where there can be a lot of confusion, conflicting information, and questions around your publishing journey. The publishing landscape is noisy, overwhelming, and let's be honest, not always designed with the author's best interests in mind. That's exactly why I am so excited for today's episode. Not only are we pulling back the curtain on the red flags that every author needs to watch for, but I'm also joined by my very dear friend and first guest on the podcast, Elizabeth Lyons.
Elizabeth is a best-selling author, seasoned publishing strategist, and one of the most honest and heart-centered experts I know. She's helped hundreds of authors publish with confidence, clarity, and far fewer regrets. In this episode, we are diving into the key differences between traditional, hybrid, and self-publishing, and how to know which is right for you, the biggest red flags to look for when navigating your publishing options, and insider tips and guidance to help you get your book into the world.
If you've considered publishing your book or you just want to make sure that you're making more well-informed decisions on your publishing journey, this conversation is essential listening. Let's get into it.
Elizabeth, thank you so much for being our very, very first guest.
Elizabeth Lyons: It is my honor and pleasure. I would do anything for you.
Jenn: Oh, well, the same to you, my friend. Thank you so much. Now, before we dive into the actual questions, since we're talking about publishing red flags, I think that it would be really important for us to discuss the difference between self-publishing, traditional publishing, and where hybrid publishing comes into the mix. I would love to hear you explain that.
Elizabeth: Okay. We've jumped into a big, gnarly mess of terms that are often interchanged and wildly confused. I'm going to try to keep this at the uppermost level to make this as simple as humanly possible.
Jenn: Perfect.
Elizabeth: Traditional publishing, many people think of as the Big Five, the main Big Five publishing houses. It's expanded from that. There are a lot of small traditional presses, boutique traditional presses, et cetera. A lot of people also think traditional publishing means you're getting a whopping huge advance and the red carpet's being rolled out and all those sorts of things. That has changed drastically as well.
A good way to think of it is, in my opinion, yes, traditional publishing often, but not always, involves an advance. What it always, for now, involves is you are signing over the rights, typically just to the print version of your book. Sometimes it's others, but to that house. You are giving away your ability to make decisions, whether creative or business decisions, when it comes to that book and understandably so, because the house is making the investment in your book and they have the experience to say, "This title is going to do better, this cover is going to do better we think."
There are instances with especially smaller traditional houses where authors have more creative partnership. We're seeing that more and more. I don't want to say you never have that, but it's really-- A good way to look at it is I'm willing to give up everything in exchange for what I'm getting. Then we go into the indie world, which to me is inclusive of hybrid and self-publishing. Hybrid publishing is where an author makes an investment in the publishing of their book in exchange for, this is important, the publishing house's experience and expertise in the publishing space.
They're paying an amount upfront, the publishing house is doing their thing, and then there is a more equitable royalty split on the back end. Instead of only getting 10% of sales as you would with a traditional house, you're maybe getting 75% or 85% of sales. Then with self-publishing, sometimes that's called author publishing now, it's all you. You're going out on your own, and you are sourcing your cover designer, your interior format, or your editor, all of these components, your marketing person, and you are not only funding it in full, but you're recouping 100% of the profits on the back end. Within each of those, you can keep going--
Jenn: Deeper and deeper. Absolutely. I think that with so many options now, it's just so confusing. It's so overwhelming. I think just even having the lay of the land is so important. What, in your opinion, should an author be considering when they are weighing their publishing options?
Elizabeth: The first one is making sure that the author's expectations are set correctly when it comes to what each of the paradigms is. The biggest issue I've seen over the last couple decades is when authors want to go the traditional route because they're making the assumption that A, there's a big advance, B, the publishing house is going to sell it for me, they're going to do all of my marketing, and C, there's going to be this big red carpet rollout and I'm going to get to go on tour and all these things that we romanticize about the publishing days of yore.
Lots of times when authors realize that's not how it works, their desire to go the traditional publishing route sometimes starts to lessen. From there, the biggest question I ask is what people's timeline is because if your timeline is within the next two to three years, traditional publishing is going to be tricky.
Jenn: Yes, absolutely.
Elizabeth: You've got to secure that agent. From there, the agent has to secure the acquisition. There are traditional houses, smaller ones now, smaller presses, that you can submit an unsolicited manuscript, so you don't need an agent, but that's a little murky.
Jenn: I always say, especially when you're signing something like that, having an agent who is an actual contract specialist look it over just to make sure you're not screwed over is a very smart move to have.
Elizabeth: It's a very smart move. In fact, several authors with whom I've spoken have gotten the publishing offer without an agent, and they immediately went and hired an agent. Not hired an agent, but found an agent who wanted to sign on. You're essentially hiring them because they do receive 15% of your earnings. What a lot of people don't understand is the agent does far more than just get you a deal. They hold your hand. Well, they should.
You know I don't use that word lightly or regularly, but that's what you're paying them to do, is answer your questions, help you understand what's going on.
Jenn: Absolutely. I think a lot of people have that misinterpretation of an agent. Getting an agent is almost harder than getting a deal half the time. Another thing that I think that many authors do is they just sign with the first agent that they get because it is such a long process. It's a marriage. It is something that you need to make sure that you have a great or a trusted relationship with that agent to get you the best deal. There's so many elements to really consider.
Another thing that I've talked with many authors about that they think, oh, with the advance, they get it all up front. If they get a $100,000 deal, they're going to just be rolling in the money, and they don't realize this is broken up into four or sometimes five payments. You have to take into account taxes, your agent's fees, all of these different things. It's actually significantly less than what they think that it's going to be.
Elizabeth: Yes. It's certainly for most authors unless we're talking about the top 1%. It's not usually enough to live on unless you have another means, you have a partner who's holding down the bills, et cetera. You get that $100,000 advance or you hear a six-figure advance, and in reality, their checks are $24,000 a year over three to four years. No, that's not small, but it is small when you have a family of five and you need to provide for them on that.
Jenn: Exactly. Let's talk about some of the red flags because that is something that you and I have talked about extensively.
Elizabeth: [unintelligible 00:09:30].
Jenn: Yes. I think it was one of the first bonding experiences that you and I had were just some of these atrocious deals or scams that many authors have fallen prey to. There's some obvious red flags where there's some publishing companies that charge like $20,000 up to like $60,000 or $80,000.
Elizabeth: Actually, this might be slightly controversial, but to me, that isn't even necessarily the red flag.
Jenn: Yes, absolutely. Good point. I think when we see, "Oh, I'm paying all this money. I'm going to get this huge return. I'm going to make this return on this investment--"
Elizabeth: Bestseller status.
Jenn: Exactly, and when they tout all of these dream-come-true scenarios within their pitch to you. Self-publishing does have upfront costs, but besides the-- Like I mentioned, the cost being the red flag, what are some other things that authors should be aware of when looking at some of these services that charge these huge price points, and even some that don't charge that much?
There's some that are charging like $500 or $700 that they are not providing that result that they're promising. What are some of those things that authors should be looking for?
Elizabeth: First of all, no reputable publisher will reach out to an author unsolicited, but many times, authors will get messages in their Instagram DMs, their Facebook DMs. They'll get emails. The thing to know really is that these not great, not reputable companies, they scour social media for authors who are getting ready to publish or who have maybe just launched a book and seemingly aren't sure what to do next.
They love to spend time in the author groups where people are like, "I don't really know what to do." Then they message you and they say, "Hey, we saw this, and we think your book has so much potential. We would love to publish it." No, that is not a thing. That is an immediate, turn 180 degrees and run as fast as your feet can take you. That is not a thing.
Another one is when it comes to the price points, it's not the price points that scare me or that-- well, they scare me sometimes, but that are red flags because I've spoken with a number of people who have paid those $60,000, $80,000, $100,000 fees and they're happy.
Jenn: Oh.
Elizabeth: Yes, they're happy. They're happy with this because they knew what they were getting for that. They're probably, by the way, people who bring in so much money that this is a drop in the bucket. The key is really understanding what you're getting for that investment. If you're hiring a ghostwriter, that is going to come with a hefty price tag. If solid editing, and I don't mean editing by an AI program, I mean editing by an experienced developmental editor, is part of the package. That's not inexpensive.
It's when the company starts saying things like, "We guarantee bestseller status." Oh, dear God, I can guarantee you bestseller status too. I'll show you how to do it in three minutes, and it won't affect you at all in the long term. Good or bad. It's those sorts of things, or they say, "We're going to roll out this whole marketing plan." There is no marketing plan because their marketing people are interns who are 17 years old, don't know a lick about marketing, and they're just doing some plug-and-play stuff.
That's the piece where I think authors need to ask some really critical questions of their publishing partner to say, "How does this all work?" I've got a whole list of critical questions to ask a hybrid publisher because there are just things that we don't know until we know and aren't happy.
Jenn: Exactly. When you've talked with many authors who have had bad experiences or who have been taken advantage of within these situations, what prompted them to actually invest in that? What were some of those things that did not return in that investment? What were those bad situations?
Elizabeth: I think more often than not, what prompts people to invest in these cases is the dream. It's like, "Oh my God, that's everything I've ever wanted. I'm going to take out a second mortgage. I'm going to pull from the 401(k). I'm going to do whatever it takes," because they want that dream so badly, which is really-- It's heartbreaking. I've been there in certain areas of my own business life where you see something, and if it seems too good to be true, it probably is.
On the back end of that, however, what ended up happening, I worked with an author a couple of years ago who worked with a house like this. They completely went out of business. When they went out of business, which happens, the traditional houses are merging and doing things too, but there was no plan. When she signed the contract with them, they were already going into bankruptcy. They just didn't publicize it. She never received a penny of her royalties.
Then, when they ultimately went out of business, the company that took over the business did not honor the contract that she had signed with the previous business. She had to spend another few thousand dollars to buy her rights back to the book, to get the book back, and have to start all over again. That's probably the worst scenario that I've been personally privy to, but we hear about them a lot.
Lots of times, it's unfortunate that the hybrid publishing companies don't do a better job of setting expectations and making sure that authors know. To be fair, there are some really good hybrid publishers out there, but they don't know what the authors don't know, which is why it's incumbent upon the author themselves to ask the questions. It's not that the good publishers aren't willing to give the answer. It's that they don't know that you don't know.
Jenn: Exactly. I think that so many authors come into the whole publishing realm because they don't know what they don't know, and they don't ask questions. They are just trustworthy of they've done this before, I don't know what I'm doing. There's that feeling of they're the experts, I just want to get my book published. There's almost this panic, like, if I don't do this, then my book won't get published.
Elizabeth: You raise a really good point too, which is that the creative community is already one that battles imposter syndrome to begin with. Then you put them in the ecosystem of this group that is, air quotes, supposed to know how this all works, and the author feels, for lack of a better word, not smart. They feel like, "Oh, I don't want to look stupid by asking this question," but they need to be willing to feel uncomfortable asking that question because it's just like any other business decision.
You really want to get to a place where you say, "Listen, this is your expertise, not mine." I see this with very successful, and I put the air quotes there, but very successful business people, where their area of expertise is what it is, but it is not book publishing. They still feel like, "Well, I should know that." I'm like, "Why should you know that?" If you put me on a farm today and say, "Man these goats," I know how to build the fence, but I don't know what the-- what [unintelligible 00:17:52] these goats. [chuckles]
You've got to be willing to just humble yourself enough to say, "I trust you," and if you're not getting the answers that are making you feel comfortable, that is a red flag. One other thing that's come onto the scene in the last couple of years is self-publishing service providers, which is different from hybrid publishing. In my opinion, when you enlist the help of a self-publishing services provider, you are still self-publishing. The key with hybrid, that's when you hire someone outright to help you with your cover and/or your interior formatting, and/or, and/or, and/or, but the cord is cut after that service is provided.
That services provider has no financial investment in the success of your book. When you're working with a hybrid publisher, it's a partnership. There is going to be a percentage in almost all cases that you will pay on the back end. The payments are going to go to the hybrid publisher, and then the hybrid publisher is going to pay you. As opposed to when you self-publish and possibly enlist a service provider, all the payments are going to come right into your bank account. They're setting it up on your site.
I think that when you're looking at a hybrid publisher, it is important to know what questions do I want to ask because you are getting in bed with them for potentially many, many years.
Jenn: Yes. That does pose the question of, there is a very blurred connection line between all of these publishing scenarios. How should an author know which one is best for them?
Elizabeth: This doesn't mean that this is the be-all end-all, but I actually put together a quiz for this to help people-
Jenn: I love it.
Elizabeth: -identify which is probably the best. Remember, it can be the best to go with one model for one book, and then your next book, you might try something different. There are a lot of questions you can ask yourself, and I'll give you the link if you want to put it in the show notes-
Jenn: Wonderful.
Elizabeth: -where it's just, what's important to you? Is timing important to you? Do you want to work in partnership with someone? Is it just important to check I was with HarperCollins or whomever, off your bucket list? Is the imprint name-- is it an ego thing? Is it a vanity thing? Even if you only admit that unto yourself, it's important to know that about yourself. I just want to have the traditional experience once.
These are all the questions that are important to ask. Is my book a little bit off the beaten path? Am I on trend, as it were, or do I want to do something that's, oh God, never been done? Which, please don't-- Everything's been done. Even if you think you're doing something that's never been done, somehow you're peripheral to something that's already been done, but if you're doing something that's a little bit less typical, you're going to have a harder time going the traditional route.
If you're writing essay or memoir, you're going to have a harder time going the traditional route. If you're writing rom-com, you might have an easier-- and please, easy, simple, I don't know what, time, going the traditional route. Recognizing that when you pick one route, you're not marrying it until death do you part. You are marrying it for now for this book.
Jenn: Yes. I think that that's a big misconception that many authors have is thinking, "Oh, if I go self-publishing for the first book, I will never get a traditional publishing deal," if that is a big dream that they have, or they're just stuck wherever they hitch their wagon for this first book.
Elizabeth: We've seen it happen in various ways. A common question is, "If I self-publish and it does well, will a traditional house pick it up?" The answer is maybe. It's happened. It's a small number of cases where it happens. If it does happen, if the offer is made, then the author has to decide, "Do I even want to do that, and why?" Sometimes the answer is absolutely not, because now, clearly, I know how to market. If the answer is yes, sometimes it's because they want that. They want to get in the machine.
In those cases, the publishing house, the traditional house, is more comfortable making a larger upfront commitment in advance because the author's already in the machine, as it were. We've got hybrid publishers, which we've talked about. We also have hybrid authors, which is different. A hybrid author is an author who has published under different paradigms. Maybe they have one self-published book and one traditional. That's a hybrid author. This is why it gets so confusing. [laughter] There are enough terms anyway.
Also, there is no clear-- it's an ever-changing definition. One caveat to that question that I'll provide is if you self-publish a book and it doesn't do great, the solution is not try to get a traditional house to do it because the traditional house is understandably going to be like, "Wait a minute, if you can't get this thing to go, what makes you think that we can?" Again, the marketing will fall on the author. I don't care if you're with Penguin or Chronicle, anybody, it will fall on the author.
Jenn: Absolutely. I think that that is one of the biggest misconceptions that authors have is like if I sign with the "traditional publishing house" or even if a hybrid publisher promises marketing, that doesn't always translate into what you might think is marketing services. I've seen some where they say, "We send out a press release, and we create some social media assets," and they charge thousands and thousands of dollars for this. That is not a marketing plan.
Elizabeth: Who needs press releases?
Jenn: No one. No one.
[laughter]
Elizabeth: [unintelligible 00:24:04] You get $7,000 a day.
Jenn: In your opinion, what are some of the questions that authors should ask if they are thinking about signing with a hybrid publisher?
Elizabeth: Let's talk about the ones that are less obvious and that authors understandably, I want to be so clear about this, would not think to ask because if you don't know how this process works, there's no reason that you would think to ask about a piece of the process you don't even know is in existence. One big one is, what is the process for ordering author copies?
When you want to have author copies for an event or just to give to people, or stand on the street corner and wave, "Please buy me," what is the process for ordering that? What's the timeline for ordering that? Is there an upcharge? How much are you going to be paying for that copy, plus shipping, so that you just have a sense of, can you even make money off of that, or is that a zero-sum game?
This goes back to the marketing package. If the publishing house offers to create your website, if that's part of the package, like, "We're going to do your website. We're going to do your social media," is it a private standalone website, the answer is probably no, or is it just a page on their website, which will do absolutely nothing for you? With social media stuff, it's like they might just have 10 canned images that they send you. That's not running your social media. They use interesting words.
If editing is included in your package, is it an editor from that house, and what is their experience? Do they hire out, which is not necessarily a red flag, but if they hire out, where are they hiring from? If it's Fiverr or an AI program, you should just know what level of editing you're getting for what you're paying. Whose account will the book be uploaded to? It's likely 9 times out of 10, if not 10, it's going to be theirs because that's how they get their percent off the back end, and then they cut you your 85% or whatever.
That's important to know because then from there, what you want to ask is, if I need to change or want to change my keywords, my book description, my book's price, what's the process for doing that? You just want to know this. You want to know what that process is. Do you even have access to them to do those sorts of things afterwards? Timelines, obviously, you want to ask about timelines. Where do they upload their book for distribution?
Another big, I want to say, red flag is that some of these outfits will say, "We'll get you uploaded for distribution to 35,000 distributors." That is not entirely accurate. It's a very poor way of saying that once you're uploaded into the machine, 35,000, I can't even imagine who those people are, but 35,000 book retailers have the ability to order your book if they so choose. They will not if they do not know that the book exists unless you have a marketing team or a sales team.
This is why traditional houses have sales teams that have quarterly, if not monthly meetings with booksellers to say, "This is what's coming. This is what you're going to want to have. Blah, blah, blah." The idea of like, "Oh my God, I'm going to be in every bookstore. I'm going to be available through every--" No, that's not true.
Jenn: No. That's misleading wording. Another thing that authors ask, "Oh, will it be in Target? Will it be in Walmart? Will it be in libraries?" That's a whole other thing.
Elizabeth: It's getting into an area too that we won't dive deep into because I don't think there's any reason to, but what people don't recognize about the Targets and the Costcos and all that of the world, the physical, is the returns. It's lovely to be in those stores, especially if you're traditionally published and the returns are merely coming off the ledger of your advance.
It's a whole different situation when you're hybrid or self-published. It's very, very difficult to get into those establishments. If you did someway, somehow, and then the returns start coming in, you're getting a bill for that.
Jenn: Yes. I think those are those details where, especially having someone like you that knows all of these ins and outs, especially if this is your first book or if you're new to it, why I love everything that you provide because you are just this open book and you provide all of these amazing resources and tools and insights that can save you, not only your sanity, but also save you money in the long run.
Elizabeth: Which can be your sanity. Look, I got passionate about this side of the space because whether it was in the book industry or just in the entrepreneur space, which I've been in for too long, there were so many instances where I was like, "Why did no one tell me this? If someone had told me this, I could have avoided or sidestepped or pivoted." I'm really quite agnostic when it comes to which publishing approach is best. I support all of them for different reasons.
I just think it's so important that authors understand how it all really works so they can ask the questions. I'm a big fan, even myself, of saying, "I don't know," and going, "Let me call some people who are traditionally published. Let me consult with this person to say, what's happening," and not because they're the be-all end-all, but because there are people who can speak.
I talked to Jane Friedman a couple of weeks ago. She can speak much more intelligently and knowledgeably about the traditional space and what's really happening there than I, especially with AI. That's the zone in which she spends a lot of her time. I think it's just intention is important.
Jenn: Exactly. I think, too, taking the time to educate yourself on the different options, what are the good things versus the bad, really asking questions of other authors. That's why I think having a community, just being a part of an author community is so powerful, and finding trusted advisors like yourself that can really help them make the best decision for them and their book. You and I can't say this is what you need to do. We can let you know the information, but ultimately, they have to make that decision for themselves.
Elizabeth: It really is very true. I think it's so helpful to have a different, even an opposite perspective for something, a different way to look at something, because when you start to get mob mentality around, "No, you can't do this. This is the only way to do it," a couple of different things could be going on. Number one, someone's trying to sell you something. To me, whenever someone says, "You have to do it this way," I'm always curious, what's their product on the back end that's going to teach me how to do it that way?
I'm all about products. I have many of them. You have many, right? I'm all about that. It's meant to provide a framework, not a must, which is why within my author community, and I know within yours too, I am very open to, okay, you're coming to this meeting to ask questions, how do I blank? Within my community, I have therapists. I have people who I will literally throw, metaphorically, the microphone to them. Would that be proverbially or metaphorically? I don't know. Anyway, to them, and say, "Take this. You can better answer this than I can."
I love it when someone else in the community can say, "Well, actually, I talked to this publishing house. Have you heard of them?" Because there are so many, or, "I just learned about this publishing service and they were phenomenal." Then everyone in the group is like, "Oh my gosh, great," as opposed to spending all of our time going, "Well, listen to what this guy did. Listen to what these people did." Oh my God, I can't with that. It's like a collective high tide raises all boats situation.
Jenn: Exactly. I think that authors who have had a great experience or a bad experience with someone is always willing to share that. I think the author community is amazing in that they want to help other authors and they want to build them up and to share that experience. I think anyone who might feel scared or intimidated to ask a question, 9 times out of 10, this question has come up before. Asking that question is not only going to help you make a better decision or to feel better about a situation, but it's going to empower another author to speak their experience in with it. I just think that all around is just amazing advice.
Elizabeth: It's like beta readers. When you have a beta reader, it's so important to not just give the manuscript to the beta reader and say, "Let me know what you think." That is just an open-ended nightmare waiting to happen. I suggest having very pointed questions, 5 to 10, "What chapter did you love most? Where did you get lost? Where did you get bored?" Not questions that can have a yes or no answer, but pointedly ask the question. It's the same when you're looking for publishing services.
If you talk to someone who's worked with a company or a group that you're considering, don't just say, "Did you like working with them?" "What did you like most? What was unexpected in a good way? What was unexpected in a not-so-good way? What have you learned that you'll take with you to your next experience?" To ask those sorts of very pointed questions really helps you get your arms around, not whether it's a good or a bad company, but whether it's right for you and for this book.
Jenn: Exactly. Thank you so much for sharing all this because this, I think, it not only helps authors to know, "Okay, these are some of the questions that I need," but also to get to know you because you have such value.
[laughter]
Elizabeth: I haven't sworn once.
Jenn: No, you haven't. [laughter] It's amazing. I'm proud of you.
Elizabeth: It's shocking, actually.
Jenn: I just love that more people are getting to know you and your services because what you provide-- I've told so many people there is no one I trust more and no one that I direct people to more because Lord knows there are a lot of people out there that are offering different things, but I trust you. I just love how you approach things, how you explain things, and just your-- You want to pour wisdom and help into others. I love what you do.
Elizabeth: Well I don’t know about wisdom, but thank you for saying that. I feel the exact same way about you. When I talk about author marketing, and we can use different words for that, but visibility, all of that, you are the only person that I-- which doesn't mean you're the only person doing it, but in a sea of people, you are the only person I've found who is just transparent as hell. There, I swore. Can we mark this explicit now? Transparent as all get-out, tons of knowledge, tons of resources to back it up, and just fun and kind and down to earth, and you get it.
Jenn: Oh, thank you. I so appreciate it. First of all, you provide a lot of different services and different products. I know you have a free self-publishing guide. You have so many resources. Where can people find you, Elizabeth?
[laughter]
Elizabeth: Well, I'm in my house because I don't leave it. The best place is publishaprofitablebook.com. Everything is there. There's a programs page, there's a freebies page, and there's a link to the podcast. Everything is there. The social media platform where I'm most active is Instagram.
Jenn: Great. We'll have all of those linked in the show notes. Yes, you also have a podcast, which is phenomenal. Everything that you have is just top notch, and I adore you and everything that you provide. Thank you so much for being on.
Elizabeth: Thank you so much.